Pronouncing "BPAL" and scent names!

[clover]

 

(Don't feel bad...I thought Calliope & Penelope rhymed with cantaloupe.)

[diabolique]

could someone inform me how in the hell you pronounce r'lyeh? ;x

 

also, how many of you say "sam-hayn" rather than the traditional "sow-when?" when i talk to my friends about halloween (or the oil), i pronounce it sow-when, and even when i say sam-hayn they have no idea what i'm talking about. just curious.

[tart]

also, how many of you say "sam-hayn" rather than the traditional "sow-when?"

I was copying some flyers about a Samhain festival for a customer (I work at a copy and print center). He was severely impressed that I pronounced it Sow-when. ::puffs out chest::

[Witch's Dagger]

Ooh! More linguistics rambling!

 

Warning: this is a weird ramble going from fantasy writing, to my weird linguistic theory, to an explanation of what a bilabial fricative is in probably way too much detail, to how I pronounce the word Samhain.

 

There's a Mercedes Lackey song from her Last Herald-Mage trilogy entitled Shadow Stalker that has as it's opening "It was just a week 'til Savven, when the nights were turning chill..." and I thought, "Hmmm, 'sah-ven'. I like that." And then, somewhere I read that mh and bh and can be pronounced either as 'w' or as 'v'. Thus Queen Madb is Queen Maeve, and Samhain is Sow-wen (or probably more accurately Sah-wen, but because of ah-w, we get 'ow').

 

I've learned more since then, and my theory is that actually mh and bh and the like were actually voiced bilabial fricatives. The voiced part means that even though it's a consonant, your vocal chords are involved. The only difference between 'f' and 'v', for example, is that 'v' is voiced and 'f' is voiceless. Other pairs include 't' and 'd', 'p' and 'b', 'k' and 'g', 's' and 'z', and so on. The bilabial part means you use two lips, as in p, b, or m. Fricative is a little harder to describe, but basically it means that the air is only partially restricted, rather than completely blocked, and it continues to flow. Good examples of fricatives are 'f', 'v', and 's'. I have no idea if this is actually correct, but it makes sense as to why some people would say it now as 'w' and others as 'v', since this sound has the bilabial, roundedness of the 'w', but the friction and voiced-ness of the 'v'. On the other hand, it could simply be the already close relationship between 'v' and 'w' (English words beginning with 'w' are often transcribed with a 'V' in Russian, as in Vashington)

 

Basically, this whole post is designed to explain why I now pronounce the word Samhain with a bilabial fricative, which is somewhere between a 'v' and a 'w'. But I'm a nut, and I don't think it's necessary for anyone else to do this, unless they want to, and I consider both the 'v' version and the 'w' version interesting.

 

As for "r'lyeh", no idea. Anyone?

[BubbleDragon]

Well, technically, V is labio-dental. ;o)

[ChupaChup]

Witch's Dagger, just wanted to say that was a great explanation and I have a feeling you are right. Thanks

[isyche]

I've heard R'lyeh pronounced ruh-LIE-uh (I don't know if that's how everyone pronounces it though). Lovecraftian names are fun to say, but tricky.

[Witch's Dagger]

Well, technically, V is labio-dental.  ;o)

Yes, I know. Did I call it something else? *goes back to check for vocabulary mistakes*

 

Oh! I see. Yes, I didn't talk about 'v' at all. Whoops. I can see how that would be confusing.

 

My theory is that 'mh' 'bh' 'dh', etc. are bilabial fricatives.

 

So, here's what I was *trying* to say (and many apologies for not being clear, plus future apologies for beating a dead horse, if that is the case - I tend to be good at beating dead horses (Shoot! I forgot to put that in the 'what are you brilliant' at part of the 'Who are you?' thread in randomness!))

 

When I heard that 'mh', 'bh' and 'dh' could be pronounced 'v' or 'w', I started pronouncing Samhain 'Sah-ven'. Then I learned some of the following linguistic things:

 

1. 'v' and 'f' are fricatives, and labio-dental (1 lip, 1 set of teeth (you *can* pronounce these with upper teeth and lower lip, but it's usually upper lip and lower teeth))

 

2. 'w' is basically 'u' (oo) before another vowel, it is bilabial, but not exactly a consonant, and air isn't really trapped or stopped or hindered in any way.

 

So, when I learned that there's no reason you *can't* have a bilabial fricative (though it's hard for me to do somewhat), I figured that made perfect sense for the Samhain question... especially considering how it's spelled - 'm' and 'b' are also bilabial sounds, and it's very possible (to me, anyway) that the 'h' after it might have been indicating 'Okay, this is a fricative, not a stop', since 'h' is basically just air flowing.

 

So now, I no longer pronounce Samhain 'sah-ven', but rather use a bilabial fricative in the place of the 'v' or 'w'. I'm not sure what letter to represent that with.

 

I apologize again for not being clear, and also for potentially beating a dead horse. I do hope it's more clear now

[Morrighana]

I'd actually have to go through my notes (which aren't with me at the moment) to be sure, but I think the bh and mh are actually glottalics, and that the contrasts that English speaking ears perceive are not exactly what they are to Gaelic speaking ears, due to our inability to perceive subtle differences in VOT...

 

[edited to add that I was on crack when I posted this...I don't think 'mh' is glottalic; I do agree that it is probably a voiced bilabial fricative, though at the moment I'm not convinced that 'bh' is. ]

[Witch's Dagger]

I'd actually have to go through my notes (which aren't with me at the moment) to be sure, but I think the bh and mh are actually glottalics, and that the contrasts that English speaking ears perceive are not exactly what they are to Gaelic speaking ears, due to our inability to perceive subtle differences in VOT...

Ooh! That's interesting! We've been talking about exactly that sort of problem with perception in one of my linguistics classes. I know that my 'mh' 'bh' idea is just that, a sort of 'hmm, this looks interesting' thing combined with 'what if' and so on. I find it fun to do that sort of speculating, but of course, the draw back is that it's just that, speculation. And I am interested not only in the Gaelic of today, but also the historical roots... Hmm... need more time to pursue language studies...

 

Thanks for the heads up, Morrighana, and if you're up to looking through your notes, I'd at least be interested in what's there!

[goddessrobyn]

MASABAKES -- (this is a guess based on salice's knowledge of Spanish .. we'll get confirmation if we can later) -- Mah-SAH-bah-kehs

 

The accent should be on the second to last syllable:

 

Mah-sah-BAH-kehs

 

Multisyllabic Spanish words are always accented on the second-to-last syllable, unless an accented vowel (é, í, etc.) appears elsewhere in the word.

actually... that's only true if the word ends in a vowel, an "n" or an "s" (which covers 99% of the language...

 

Sorry... Spanish teacher... can't help myself

[Gin]

also, how many of you say "sam-hayn" rather than the traditional "sow-when?" when i talk to my friends about halloween (or the oil), i pronounce it sow-when, and even when i say sam-hayn they have no idea what i'm talking about. just curious.

I pronounce it more like "sah-wen" but in my head, it's always "sam-hayn".

 

Also, I always think of BPAL as "Bee-pal" not "Bee-pee-ay-ell".

 

[Penance]

also, how many of you say "sam-hayn" rather than the traditional "sow-when?" when i talk to my friends about halloween (or the oil), i pronounce it sow-when, and even when i say sam-hayn they have no idea what i'm talking about. just curious.

I pronounce it more like "sah-wen" but in my head, it's always "sam-hayn".

 

Also, I always think of BPAL as "Bee-pal" not "Bee-pee-ay-ell".

 

 

Those are the exact same things I do when pronouncing them!

 

I always have to fight myself to keep from saying "Sam-hayn" even though I know how it's pronounced. It's like a mental tic or something.

 

~ Penance

[VelvetSky]

I say Sow-when.

 

And B-Pal

 

[Skallywag]

In Ireland, we would say ...Sau-en.

Or some might drop the en and pronounce it- Saoun. A very rounded word sound.

 

There are different dialects all over Ireland and can differ wildly from each other.

 

Oh...and Bee pal

[quinkel]

Another sam-hayn here... as a not native English, this is how it looks like, and actually I never heard it spoken

 

And BPAL ....bee-pal

[hadaverde]

Yep, I say bee-pal too. My sweetie has said it a few times now, as well.

[Laurel the Woodfairy]

Oh yes! In our household it's always B-Pal!

 

I find myself translating a fair bit--for example, I just received a generous decant of Mabon, which I referred to as "Mabon--you know, the harvest festival we just had" for Brian's benefit. Same with Samhain, which I pronounce "Sow-wen, you know, Halloween?"

[Pixie-elf]

Up until maybe a month ago I pronounced it Sam-hayn, because that's how it looked to me... But I was reading a book, and didn't know how a few things were pronounced, so I got online and typed them in, and found the true pronounciations of them, and also put in Samhain... lol. I found out how to say it right...

 

And I migrated from the Lush forum, and I ALWAYS read it in my head as "Bee-Pal" lol... I still say it like that when I talk about it! B-Pal. I don't think I'll ever pronounce it differently!

[Miggins]

This is kind of BPAL-related... I just got an imp of Old Cairo which I adore, but I just wanted to know how you pronounce "kyphi"? I tend to say "kiffy" (the ph being an 'f' sound), but I don't know if it's right.

[Mrs.Black]

Why can't we just assimilate the two bilabial oclusives and pronounce BPAL as "pal"? (This is what my mind does, anyway).

[EvilKitten]

 

For me, it's bee-pal. For my honey, it's Oh-My-god-not-that-bee-pal-stuff-again

 

hehe

[Pixie-elf]

 

For me, it's bee-pal. For my honey, it's Oh-My-god-not-that-bee-pal-stuff-again

 

hehe

*LMFAO!!!!* Okay that was great. LMAO.

 

For my family it's "What the hell is she obsessed with NOW? Is this BPAL going to be worse than her Lush addiction? I'm starting to think she's joining shopping cults or something...."

 

Although my Aunt Gina wanted me to get a Honeysuckle single note for her but changed her mind lol... Everyone liked the Imps Ears that I've gotten already, so they like them. lol.

 

And my name, Mystina, is pronounced Miss-tina (basically, it's just all one word, but that's how people that know me pronounce it...) ...I also get some really weird ones too... "My-es-tini-uh???" (like at doctors offices...) And all kinds of other places...

 

Isn't it strange how we all pronounce things differently, or the way we comprehend the way something is written? lol. I tend to mess up a LOT on pronouncing things though.... I'd like to study some of this one day.

[Lido]

Now I feel weird... I think of it as bee-pall rather than bee-pal

[Witch's Dagger]

Why can't we just assimilate the two bilabial oclusives and pronounce BPAL as "pal"? (This is what my mind does, anyway).

That's wonderful!

 

As for me, I alternate between bee-pal and bay-PALL (as if it were French), but now I'm thinking of going with PALL.